Poll on Suggested NTL Improvements

[kosmo]

For reasons that became clear to me after posting this thread I realized that my original plan to build my desired version of W10 on my W7 machine were unworkable. I wasted time & energy going down the wrong path. Because many newbies, like myself, aren't aware of this potential problem and, to my knowledge, there's nothing in the documentation about it then perhaps another way to bring attention to this is needed.

The program shows warning messages where necessary. What if NTL detected that the host OS was older than the version about to be modified and showed a cautionary message something like this:

You are currently running NTLite on a version of Windows that is older than the operating that you have chosen to modify. NTLite uses Window's DISM for some of it's processing. Like Windows itself, DISM is continually evolving and the version of DISM in your current operating system may or MAY NOT be able to process all of the changes correctly. This could result in visible errors or, even worse, could possibly result in invisible errors.

To eliminate this risk it is advised that you install an unmodified version of your chosen Windows version to your target machine and then use NTLite on that machine to build your modified ISO.

Watta ya think?

 

[garlin]

NTLite does provide this warning the first time you load a non-W7 image on a W7 platform.

 

[kosmo]

NTLite does provide this warning the first time you load a non-W7 image on a W7 platform.

I don't doubt you but I never saw anything similar to what i'm suggesting. Are you able to post the contents of the existing message?

 

[garlin]

Maybe a more instrusive pop-up is what you're wanting...

May corrupt the image if integrated from Windows 7. It is advisable to integrate this update from Windows 8.1 or 10 as a host

 

[kosmo]

Maybe a more instrusive pop-up is what you're wanting..

Thanks for going to the trouble of getting these shots but that belated, cryptic warning is not what i'm suggesting at all.

I'm suggesting a warning that covers what I wrote in my suggested text that shows up as soon as you load an ISO that's newer than the host system. IE: right in the beginning of the process - before we newbies wander off down the Pointless Path.

 

[nuhi]

Update is colored red on the Updates page if Win10 detected on Win7, and on the Apply page there is also the note to review the Updates page analysis warning.
Top of the Updates page states "For red marked packages, use Analyze", hover that analysis popup message with a mouse to see full info, far from cryptic.
There could be more messages on that list, would not fit all expanded at first.

Then on the integration error it states the same, and since your choices are saved in the auto preset, basically it spent maybe 2-5 minutes of processing, once in your life, it really cannot be that big of a deal.

Of course if someone has a ready workaround for this Windows 7 limitation without 3rd party additions, I'm all ears, rather go around it than add more popups.

 

[Hellbovine]

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, I think it's all good points of view. I only wanted to add that even though I know it's difficult to do this, the reality to consider is that it's time for people to let go of the older operating systems, as those are becoming an exercise in futility in today's age.

Currently, there's less than 4% of all Windows users on the combined operating systems of XP, Vista, W7, W8, W8.1 (link). The stats confirm that each year the numbers continue to decline overall, and they aren't ever going to rebound. NTLite would be better served by spending all development time focusing on W10/W11/W12 exclusively, in order to make progress on the tool more efficient.

I'm willing to bet that everything I say here will be strongly supported in the coming 6-12 months as the BlackLotus exploits resolve. Once all the boot media is updated, patches are out, along with Microsoft continuing to do other stuff, such as eliminating links to older operating systems, deleting older updates from the Catalog, SSL/TLS issues, etcetera, it's going to put the axe on everything below W10 for everyone but the most advanced users.

 

[Mr. Yu]

Currently, there's less than 4% of all Windows users on the combined operating systems of XP, Vista, W7, W8, W8.1 (link).

The cruel reality. People have to give up the most classic operating system. When the extended update service for Windows 7/8.1 officially terminates, they will eventually be products of the times.

 

[Clang2]

People have to give up the most classic operating system.

i gave it up by choice. i was vehemently against using windows 10 but after sitting down and weighing up the pros and cons taking quite a lot factors into account i find its usable and stable enough for my needs once i have tweaked it to hell and back.
moaning wont get you nowhere so get the polish out and get to work.

 

[kosmo]

Of course if someone has a ready workaround for this Windows 7 limitation without 3rd party additions, I'm all ears, rather go around it than add more popups.

First of all let me just restate that I have great respect and admiration for the tremendous amount of work that's gone into NTL to get it to where it is today. Proved by the fact I just paid 40 euros for the privilege of using it again. But since I only do this every 6 years or so (or whenever M$ bans whatever perfectly good OS i'm still using) i'm always going to be a noob at this. But if I can return anything useful to the forum in repayment for the help I continue to receive it may be precisely the perspective of a new user that most of you OS experts have long forgotten. So let me try again:

nuhi, I think you're missing the key point here. Please correct me if i'm wrong but my understanding from the thread where I posted my error messages is that (a) because DISM (which many new users have never even heard of) evolves as OS versions change and (b) DISM is necessarily used for part of the processing that NTL does and (c) the host system's DISM module may not be capable of making the changes requested to a newer system and, worst of all (d) the failure may show an error message or it may fail in ways that don't trigger an error message at all.

I think it's safe to assume that most new NTL users have a project in mind. It may involve new hardware. It will certainly involve budgeting a significant block of time. And i'm willing to bet 90+% of new or 1st time users will not know about this potential DISM problem. And, I assume, a significant number of them will be "upgrading" to a later version of the OS. And without this info they’re very likely to run into failures and only belatedly learn that their original working assumption was unrealistic: that their W8.1 machine could build a 22h2 ISO just fine.

I wasted a week attempting to build something that was doomed to fail for reasons that I had no knowledge of or, realistically, could have known about in advance. We're not born knowing this stuff and it certainly isn't "in the manual". So, in hindsight, I wish I had been advised - before I started - that the only sensible, reliable way to build a copy of 22h2 that meets your needs is to first install a copy of 22h2 on your target machine and then build your modified ISO using the same version OS as host.

Obviously it helps NTL grow if new users find the program (relatively) easy to use. But besides “ease of use” obviously you want to do what you reasonably can to increase the success rate for new users. So to have a known potential failure point in the build process that many newbies are likely to run in to and not warn them about it - in advance - seems.........quite illogical.

I understand that you don't want any more "popups" in the program. But how about a brief but highly visible explanation of why it’s strongly recommended to install a working copy of the same OS version that you intend to modify on your target machine first and then build your ISO in that environment. And posted prominently to the very beginning of the online documentation?

 

[Clang2]

build your modified ISO using the same version OS as host.

thats what i do and recommend.